If you say, and this is true of so many things with parenting, if youout loud are saying, yuck, I would never eat that. That's disgusting, gross, or just even body language or sounds about who would eat that, and then you expect your children to behave differently. That's an unrealistic expectation. Hey, Claire, how are you today?
I'm good, Rachel. I had a delicious breakfast today.
On topic for us because we are going to talk about picky eating today. Yes, we get a lot of requests for this topic.
I'm going to clarify one thing right off the bat. We're going to talk about picky eating, but we're not going to call kids picky eaters because we're not going to label them and saddle them with something like they might be picky about something. They might be having picky eating behavior. We as parents might be adding to that a little bit, but that's an important thing, is not to label them because it's not like something we'regoing to. It's perpetuated for lifetime. This is a phase often. Sometimes it's more than that, but I think that's an important way to start.
Yeah, I really like that. That child first language, not slapping a label on them that might stick with them through childhood into adulthood. For some of us, before we dive into strategies and all the why behind this behavior, we'regoing to do a quick disclaimer that we are not medical professionals. Obviously, we're here to talk about parenting strategies related to picky eating. There are instances where picky eating goes beyond just a common child behavior. It is a common child behavior. It's very, very typical to go through phases of picky eating. But there are sometimes medical reasons for it, right? Like reflux sensory disorder, autism spectrum disorder. There's another one, avoidant and restrictive food intake disorder, ARFID, that's also common sometimes with picky eating. So if you've got that gut feeling as a parent that this is beyond a typical picky eating situation, please go talk to your pediatrician. Please, please, please.
Yes, that's a great disclaimer. So we are all inundated with nutrition advice. And we, Claire and I were just joking about, as the women of the age that we are, that we feel like we cannot eat enough protein or fiber. But that last, you know, 10 years ago, there was different advice going on and there are so many, so many resources. This is true of all the parenting topics we discuss, is that you, you have friends, you have family, you have family. Of another generation. You have child care or school providers, you have online experts, and you probably have some online influencers that may or may not be experts, all giving you advice about things. And it's really hard to cull through it. So hopefully we have done that. I've. I've actually written some resources around nutrition and early childhood, and Claire and I have done some research here to make sure, as we always do, to make sure we have the right, most reliable information to pass on to parents. So hopefully we can help you figure out exactly why this happens and then some ideas about what to do to prevent it or to respond to it.
Yeah. Solet's start with the why. That's how I always like to start these conversations with you, because I think it's easier to employ the strategies if you understand maybe backing out of it. Why are you doing this?
Rachel, what do we know about why picking eating, picky eating is common in early childhood?
Well, I mean, for so many different reasons. One of the biggest reasons is that it starts to happen in those toddler years when they start to want to practice having control over things and they start. Want to assert themselves, and they are figuring out about what they like and dislike about everything. So I know we've had scenarios. I remember scenarios where my kids are saying, like, I absolutely want this food. You must make it. It's my favorite thing. And then a week later, I make it like, I made your favorite thing again. They're like, yuck, gross. And so that, like, up and down change is because they are figuring out what they like, and they are also figuring out that they have some control and that they're an autonomous person that has their own opinions that they like to share and their own likes and dislikes. And. And as parents, we want them to feel safe doing that. But we don't always have to respond. We don't have to cater to them. We're not running a restaurant at home. But you slowly can get into that, right? You slowly can start to happen. And the other thing is in infancy, even, just like they're developing motor control, just like they're developing brains, just like they're growing, just like they're able to think differently,they're developing eating habits and, and their palate. And so we want to think about that from the beginning. Are we introducing the right flavors? Are we. Is there diversity in flavors and textures? Are we helping them understand their. Their hunger cues? Do we help children say, I'm actually full right now and we respect that, or I'm hungry right now. And we respect that versus overriding those things. Soall of that development is also happening as they're kind of figuring out who they are and what they want in the world. And. And then as they get a little bit older, they start comparing, like, so. And so had this at lunch. I want some of that. I literally want a piece of that. Or then that kind of stuff starts to happen too. And, and we as adults do that. We're like, what did you. What do you have for lunch? Give me that recipe. So the kids are just starting to do some of that stuff as they get older too. And, and coveting what they're unfamiliar with or familiar with or what looks better or, you know, more interesting to them.
It's hard to imagine celebrating your child refusing dinner. But. And I'm not saying I've ever been great at this, but if you think about what Rachel just said, you frame it as. It's actually areally good sign of child development when your toddler says, no, I don't prefer that.That's not the language that they use, but that's what they're saying to you. They're saying, I'm my own person, that I do it myself. Mentality of toddlerhood extends into eating and family meals. So when they push the plate away and say, I've got my own opinion about this, it's really hard to be like, yeah, good job, kid.You're becoming your own person. No, it's not what it feels like. In the moment. You feel like you are running a restaurant. You feel like you are a short order cook all of a sudden. And that this very small child is now dictating the vibe and mood of dinner time or breakfast time or lunchtime. It doesn't have to be that way. And we can talk about that today, too. There's a tiny bit of research they're just starting to explore whether picky eating could be genetically related. That research is not really fleshed out yet. And there's also temperament to consider as well. If your child is slower to warm up to things in general, like if they're slow to warm up to a new library story time, or they're slow to warm up to a new person coming into your home, they may also be the kind of child who's slower to warm up to new foods. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's just their temperament. It does mean you'regoing to have to really be persistent as a parent when introducing new things. Yeah.
And related to that. Right. Modeling comes into play. So if you are someone who's slow to warm or very particular about the foods you eat, it's likely that'sgoing to get passed on. If you say, and this is true of so many things with parenting, if youout loud are saying, yuck, I would never eat that. That's disgusting, gross, or just even body language or sounds about who would eat that, and then you expect your children to behave differently,that's an unrealistic expectation. So being thoughtful about how you're modeling things, and then you also said something that we should probably talk about, acknowledge is we've even changed this in early childhood is we've talked about for years. We talked about family style dining, meaning everyone sits down together, passes food around the table, hasgood conversation. We still do that in our childcare centers, but we call it child centered meal times now because that's not how all families sit down and have a meal anymore. That is, that is a very stereotypical kind of culture, one culture centric way of thinking about family style meals. So we really want to think about. You want to think though, about the style of meals you have with your family. And if it is in the minivan on the way to practice somewhere and everybody's just shoving food in their face, that is also contributing to some challenges you might have with eating. So you do. I get it. I get scared. I had crazy schedules when my kids are young too. But this nutrition and developing good habits around eating and developing a wide variety of foods that you will eat, especially really nutritious foods, is important. Back to the modeling thing. One more thing.
Is thinking about what the point of nutrition is and what the point of eating is. And if we're focused on just eating for enjoyment, that is also something we could accidentally pass on to children. Because food for everyone, but especially a developing brain and body, needs to be really nutritious so they can develop well in a healthy way and those habits will stay with them for life. So everybody, every single family, every single adult, us both included, should change some habits around that. No one is exempt from having some habits that aren't always the most nutritious. And everybody gets to make some choices. But make sure you're making those purposefully. And remember, everything going into your children's bodies nutritionally is affecting their brain development, is affecting their behavior, and it's affecting their ability to learn and thrive. So I know that puts pressure on, but it's also true. So we have to confront it.
It's really important. And it's so easy as A busy parent, busy working parent to just toss a baggie of stuff at your child and call it a day. I've been there,I've had days like that. But we don't want that to be the norm, like Rachel said, because it is impacting their actual brain architecture, like you said, and their energy levels and their ability to focus at school and learn new things. We did some research and read some great research based, evidence based studies in preparation for today's episode. One that I really liked was in the Journal of Pediatrics. They looked at hundreds of families and the researchers found that, quote, when parents were very strict about the foods that children could and could not eat or were demanding about a child's eating, the child was more likely to be a picky eater. So this very thing you may be doing to try to fix the picky eating is, according to this study, probably making it worse. So what do we suggest, Rachel? We've got a lot of different strategies to cover.
Yeah, I think. And you can have guidelines in your family. You can have. And we're going to talk about that. It's just the strictness. It's just the, and how limited or how intensive those guidelines are. So, for example, one outdated practice that is not helpful, that is too strict, is having like asking for a plate to be cleaned or you can't leave the table until you've eaten everything because part of what that does is takes away a lot of choice and autonomy from your child, but it also tells them to override their body signals. So if they're really legitimately full and you're saying you cannot move from this table until you finish your plate, you, you were giving them a lot of mixed messages. So you can say things like, you have to try three bites of everything or you have to at least eat your vegetables or something like that. But you just want to be careful that you're not so strict, that you're actually overriding or competing or undermining your own goals here.
So what happens then? If they say I'm full, and you say, okay, I see you've tried a little bit of everything. I guess your body's telling you you're full. And then they come back 20 minutes later and say, I'm hungry, can I have a cookie? Can I have some popcorn, Can I have some chips? What do you do then, Rachel?
Yeah, so I would recommend. So if you're full but you still have dinner left on your plate, we'll wrap this up and we'll put it in the refrigerator. And this is what you get to come back to,it's not that you don't. That you can choose, that you're done. And then you'regoing to stay at the table. Maybe you'regoing to stay and enjoy the conversation with all of us. It doesn't mean you just get up. Get to get up and leave, and then this is the food you're going to come back to later. So that snacky filler foods are a real danger in terms of children developing picky eating habits because they get full from those filler foods. They're not very nutritionally valuable. Usually people are making all sorts of choices. Some of them might be nutritionally valuable. I was in a grocery store not that long ago and a child and a parent were in front of me and the child was asking for a snack and the parent said no. And the child goes, but it's organic. Like they learn. They learn the word. They're like, my mom likes organic food. So maybe if I clarify.
Perfect example of negotiation. I hope that that mom congratulated themselvesin raising a smart kid. There's a couplestrategies that I just thought of just listening to you talk, Rachel. One is this idea of the culture and vibe almost around eating and meals in your home. There's a lot of research that supports the value of family meals. It doesn't have to be dinner. If that doesn't work for your family, can you have breakfast together? I have a good friend who does that. One spouse is out until it doesn't get home from work until 9 or 10. So they make a point of having family breakfast together. That creates a warmth, a feeling of joy and relaxation. And that can actually help a lot with picky eating if the child is not kind of dreading sitting down for battle every single time there's a meal. Another thing I wanted to talk about is when you talk about not forcing food, is the idea of maybe you'regoing to try a new recipe or you're making a recipe tonight that you know is one of your kids is not their favorite. Can you put something on the table or something on their plate that's like a gimmefood.That's what we call it. So in my family, anyway, sothere's something, at least one thing on this child's plate that'sgoing to make them feel okay and comfortable, and that's of course, what they'regoing to like. Hoover down first, probably, right. But then maybe they'll also poke a little bit the other stuff. Maybe they'll give it a lick. Maybe they'll give It a sniff, maybe they'll taste it. But just starting from a place of, like, teamwork in that way, of, like, I have put, like, one piece of like, your favorite type of bread on the plate. Yep, there it is.
One of the things parents say a lot to us when they come into childcare centers is they look at the menu and then they would say, oh, my child is not going to eat any of this. And then they eat all of it or a lot of it. And parents are very surprised by that. Often what it is, there's a little bit of peer pressure, like everyone else is trying it, and maybe it's not so bad, but it is also that they know that their environment is not. They don'tget another choice. This is what they're having. And so at home, a lot of times we do cater because we wanted to get it. So, okay, they're going to eat macaroni and cheese. So I'll just make it over and over and over again. But instead of doing something like that, you can do something like choices. These are the choices we have tonight. So give them some control. Find the place that they can have, you know, feel like they're in. They get to make some decisions about things. And let's just say macaroni and cheese is their absolutely favoritething. Which day of the week are we going to have that? You get to help me choose. It'sgoing to be one day, and you get to help choose which day it is. So things like that. So it's going to happen and they get to help control and make some decisions about it. But you're not going to be like, negotiating every single day. It doesn't have to come up every day. Or it might. It might come up every day. And then you can remind them, this is the day. We've already made that decision.
I mean, children are master negotiators, and they're testing. They're testing every limit and every boundary, and they're supposed to do that. But at dinner time, often familiesare tired. Adults are done making decisions for the day. So we have a vulnerability in negotiation tactics when it comes to that dinnertime. So maybe breakfast is a good idea. Sowe're not as tired at the end of the day or exhausted from some of those decision making. But that knowing, having fortified yourself with when you'regoing to be open to choices, what the choices are going to be, how a child can help make some decisions. And then the other thing is when you want to try or introduce new foods, one tactic I always recommend is don't do it at mealtime, that's when you'regoing to have an argument. Don't do it when everyone's hungry or when you are busy making things like haveeverybody gets to pick one new food from the grocery store each week and everybody'sgoing to try it. You could even focus on like, everybody'sgoing to pick a new vegetable or one person gets a turn each week or whatever makes sense for your family. You can do a taste test, get four different kinds of fruit and decide who likes it best. That's a good little science experiment you could do at home. But do these things outside of mealtime, when the pressure's off, when people aren't really hungry. And that'sa hard time to negotiate about food choices when you just want to eat.
There's another one is dips. Kids love dips. I love dips. Dips are great. If there are some foods on their plate that are unfamiliar, aren't their favorite, let them choose the dip. You can take your broccoli and dip it in ketchup. It's not my preference, but ifthat's what you want to do. One of my three children will pretty much eat anything. If there's ranch, like dressing on the table, which I don't care for that myself, but I'm not going to yuck her. Yum. And she will eat asparagus. She will eat Brussels sprouts. She will eat broccoli. If she can just put a little bit of ranch dressing on it, Fine. She's getting the nutrition that she needs. She's got a nice diverse palate. You also touched on something else that was great, Rachel, which is letting your child choose which day of the week their, you know, Mac and cheese is going to be. Another great option is putting like a little visual schedule up on your fridge. I forgot that this is something that I did when my kids were younger. We've actually brought it back now that my kids are teenagers because we don't care about their opinion.We're not negotiating at 6pm at night. No, we're not ordering takeout tonight. The menu has been set for the week. So this is works for toddlers and preschoolers too. They can'tread yet. That's fine. You can have like a little visual icon of the pasta. And then the next night it'sgoing to be fish, and the next night'sgoing to be chicken. And again, maybe there'sgoing to be a gimme on the table. Right. Those other nights that Mac and cheese isn't for dinner, you can still have. Maybe you could have like a little tiny pile of plain pasta or something on the side that's familiar. It looks like the Mac and cheese, but it's not the Mac and cheese. But that's your starch for the night. Soyou've already decided a week ahead of time. This is what's for dinner. This is the main dish, this is the main thing, this is the main protein, this is the main vegetable. And just have that set.
Yep, that's a great idea. And then you as an adult too don't have to be making decisions all the time. Soyou've involved the children in this discussion and in this decision making. The other piece that is really important to know is developing a palate is not easy work. You don't suddenly have a new food that you've never had before. And it'san automatic. You'regoing to love it. You have to try something. Usually it's about seven, seven times before you really know if your palate'sgoing to adapt to that and you are going to like it. Seven times feels like a lot for an adult, let alone a young child. So you want to think about how you can do that. And I recommend not hiding too many things in other food so they know that they're trying something cause a lot. So if you'regoing to make like, let's say like a healthy version of a zucchini muffin and they're like anti zucchini. And now you, you still want to tell them it's a zucchini muffin even though. Cause you don'ttrick, you tricked them into something. Cuz that almost always backfires. So you want to be, you know, let's try three different kinds of zucchini and see which one you like best. But just like I get to say there's a couple things I, I don't like and so should kids. So there should also be things that it's okay, you tried it seven times. Okay, we're done. We're not going to make you try that again. I have had like a lifelong. I just do not like a raw tomato. I. There's nothing I'vetried many, many, many, many times to like it. Except for in the last coupleyears I just kept giving it a try and I'm like, oh, I'm good now. Okay.
So it just happens to all of us. And then I could say everyone gave me the choice to be able to say no tomatoes please. Sochild, children get to do that too after a certain amount of time. So you can Just make it clear that that's what you're doing.
And when you're in that in between phase, where you'regoing to keep. You know, you said seven times. I'veheard up to 20 times. It takes toddlers and preschoolers exposure, meaning it's on the table. They're smell. Maybe they're pushing it around their plate. Maybe they're, like, giving it a lick or something. A great tip I got from a dietician was to use the phrase, you can eat it when you're ready, which is a very respectful way of saying, I see that this is not your favorite today, basically. But we're not going to say, you never have to eat this again. We'regoing to say, you can try that when you're ready. And that basically implies, I think you'regoing to try it, and I think you might like it.
So that can be your little catchphrase. I really find it useful to have scripts in my back pocket, especially if you find yourself in a cycle of tension. I have been there with my. With all three of my kids where I am tempted to lock into battle. I am tempted to say, clean your plate. Like, I hear my parents coming out of my mouth. That's not the way that I want to do it. And I. And I. So it helps me to have those little phrases in my back pocket. You can eat that. You can try that when you're ready.
Yep. I actually. The book I wrote that involves a chapter on nutrition. I was experimenting a little bit with my children as I was doing this book, and it was at the beginning of the cauliflower craze. I'm like, I'mgoing to make a mashed cauliflower. I'mgoing to figure out how to do this. And my oldest daughter at the time was. It was just very clear how disgusting she thought it smelled and how disgusting it was and saying not very nice things. And I locked in just like you're saying, and. And had a power struggle with her and said, you're sitting at the table until you try this. It's the only time I've ever done that. And it backfired terribly. And in the dedication of the book, it does mention the great cauliflower debacle because it justhas stayed with us forever.
Oh, my gosh. It feels like you'regoing to win as a parent. It almost always backfires and almost stilldoesn't like it and still will not try it. She's an adult now. I mean, maybe shewouldn't have liked it anyway, but I sure did not help the situation.
That'sa great story. Thank you for sharing that. My story is that my youngest is still our toughest customer at the dinner table. And he is now in middle school and just this summer started eating five or six new foods because he went away to sleepaway camp for two weeks. And he was. There was no grownups pressuring anybody to do anything. They were eating at the table with other children. They were teenagers, right? So there were zero grownups putting any pressure on anybody to do anything. And he came back and he'slike, did you know that I like pickles? And I'mlike, that is a food that is always in our refrigerator. Everyone in this family likes pickles. And of course, it was hard for me not to be like, are you kidding me, kid? I tried to be really like, wow, I'm so glad you. He needed there to be less. And I didn't think I was pressuring him, but it took separation from our family dinner table. So, you know, wait around, you know, hang in there.
Maybe they'll change a little bit over time.
I think that'sgenerally whatwe're saying, too, right? Is that when we started this episode with this, and maybe we'll end with this, is that picky eating is often a phase. It can be a strategy. Adults go through it. All age children go through it. There's very valid reasons for it happening. And there are a lot of things we should reflect on as ourselves, as parents that we can change in our environment and our approach and our thinking that can reduce the amount or the length of the picky eating behavior. But we want to really stay away from labeling, as my kid is a picky eater, this is a lifetime deterministic outcome that we're going to deal with forever. You don't know that. And we can do a lot of things to try to avoid that. But the other thing we'll end with is what you started after I said, don't label your kids as picky eaters is that we are not nutrition experts or dietitians or pediatricians. And that if you do have that gut feeling that this is more than what we've talked about today. When you're worried about your child's nutrition or. Or their weight gain or they're thriving, ask for help. Talk to your pediatrician, because sometimes there is something more going on and you want to address that as soon as you can. Thanks for listening, everyone. Don't forget to subscribe or follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
And if you have a parenting question, you can email us at tplpodcast@brighthorizons.com and your question might be answered in a future episode.
00:00:00
One of the big things you do is get them to sleep in their own bed. My younger one, she was just so stealth about it. Like she had her own room and her own bed. And I'd wake up in the morning and think, did it. We succeeded. She did not come in tonight. And then over in the corner, down on the bottom of the bed, guess who was there? I curl up in a little ball. She figured out, like, how to get in. She, like, would pull the sheets down so I wouldn't feel the tension. So she's like, this is going to happen. I am sleeping in your. Hey, Claire, it's good to see you again.
00:00:36
Hi, Rachel. We are together today to talk about the topic of bedtime with young children, which can be a very sweet, snuggly, precious time of the day. And it can also be like a total battlefield.
00:00:51
I'm sure lots of us have seen these jokes or memes or whatever they're called about, like, “Dear naps: So sorry I was mean to you as a kid. Like, I like bedtime is something I really like these days.” But kid, when you are. When you have stuff to do, you have an agenda and you don't want people telling you what to do. It can be a real struggle.
00:01:10
I wish someone would put me to bed. I wish that someone would come to my house and say, Claire, it is bedtime. Put your head down on this pillow. I would be so happy.
00:01:17
But my young children do not feel that way about bedtime most nights.
00:01:21
Yep. Yeah, bedtime can be a real struggle, and there's a lot of reasons for that. And I think we're going to be able to talk about some ideas and some tricks and tips that hopefully will help anyone out there who's listening, who's like, yes, bedtime is such a struggle. I mean, one of the reasons it's such a struggle is we're all so tired at the moment. Like, we want to go to bed. Like we were just talking about, as the adults want a break and that your day is almost over and the child is preventing you from getting there sometimes. So one of the things we're going to talk about is how to not how to. How to get yourself set up for success when you're not actually at the bedtime.
00:01:54
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on at bedtime in a family. Everyone's bringing their whole day that they just had to this moment at the end of the day. And for some of us, that was a rough travel through the Day, including your child. Your child has had a long day, and there's also developmental stuff going on with your children. So it's really important to remember. We talk about this developmentally appropriate behavior all the time on this podcast. It is developmentally appropriate for young children to be very vocally unhappy that the day is done. And there can be a lot of different things going on there with their emotional development. Right. We've talked before about separation anxiety. When you part from your child at the beginning of the day, drop off at childcare, drop off at school can be tough. But for some young children, many young children, the separation at bedtime is a similar feeling to them.
00:02:43
Yep, yep. Right. But when you have young children, you're One of the big things you do is get them to sleep in their own bed. That's a big thing, a big milestone that everyone has to go through. Maybe they started life out sleeping in your bed. Maybe just sometimes, they were able to be in there, whatever that is. I had both of my children. Obviously, I had to go through that with them. But my younger one, she was just so stealth about it. Like, she had her own room and her own bed. And I'd wake up in the morning and think, did it. We succeeded. She did not come in tonight. And then over in the corner, down on the bottom of the bed, guess who was there? I curl up in a little ball. She figured out, like, how to get in. She, like, would pull. Pull the sheets down so I wouldn't feel the tension. So she's like, this is going to happen. I am sleeping in your bed.
00:03:30
Oh, bedtime battles.
00:03:31
Yeah. It can just be such a lot, but they don't. Being in your own room, being in your own bed, that can definitely. That's a big step in life. And you are alone. You don't feel as capable. You don't know what to do. Kids have nightmares. Kids get scared of things, but that's part of what's going on, and that's all developmentally normal. And that's something to work through versus a permanent state. Yeah.
00:03:56
One of my children, we called it, like, whack a mole. Like, we thought he was down. We thought lights were out. The things had been done. We're going to talk about what a good bedtime routine can look like. We had done the routine. I had finally flopped on the couch. Every parent knows that feeling. And who is there suddenly, like a phantom at the edge of the couch. There he is again. Startling. Whack a mole. Yeah. Just kept having to put him. It's exhausting well.
00:04:23
And when you're in this moment, right, when whatever is going on with the bedtime routine, whatever resistance is happening with the bedtime routine, you're vulnerable as an adult because you are done, you are off duty, you are ready to be done with the day. It has zero to do with how you feel about your child. You're just. You have clocked out and they are saying, nope, you have a little more of your shift left to do. So that's so hard. So some of the things we want to talk about are things that you will want to think about when you're not at that moment, and some things that you want to put in place that when you are not at that moment. So then you are fortified when you are in that moment with some good strategies.
00:05:00
Yes. So one of the things we've talked about previously is that young children love to be. They're learning to be independent. Separating from you is one of their biggest developmental tasks in the first five years of life, especially those first three years of life. So the same way they say, I want to put on my own coat, I want to put on my own shoes, and they resist letting you help them. The same way they might refuse to eat a new food on their plate. When you say, it's time for bed or you need to stay in your bed because it's your bedtime, they are going to say, sometimes, no, I want to be the boss. I want to be in control. And it's not that they're trying to manipulate you necessarily. It's that they really think they've got good ideas. They really think, I have a better idea than you about this and I'm ready to start my end. This is not. When we as parents are happy about that. We do not want them to be asserting their independence at bedtime. It's a really, like you said, we like it at some points.
00:05:54
But not right now. Don't assert your independence now.
00:05:56
Yeah, it's tough.
00:05:57
Yeah. I think there's also this piece about their development in terms of they are supposed to negotiate, they are supposed to try new things, they are testing boundaries. And that's absolutely normal thing that happens. And just like we're saying we wish it didn't happen all the time and we wish it can compartmentalize and say, you can do that when you're at school, you can do that in the morning, you can do that, you know, whenever it makes sense, but not so much at bedtime.
00:06:26
But they're going to do that. So it's A natural, normal thing. And they also learn very unconsciously they're not, they're not sitting in the room twiddling their fingers, thinking about how they can manipulate you. But they do learn. If I ask for this three times, I will, it will happen. If I resist going to bed, if I show up at the end of the couch when my mom has laid down on it, I will probably get what I'm asking for.
00:06:51
And so that's just normal. We all learn that. We all learn those strategies in life about how you can kind of maneuver around something and it's not always conscious. It's often, very many times, most times it's very unconscious, but they do learn that. And so when you have, like Claire said, one of the most important things is having a really good bedtime routine. If you have a three book rule before bed, but you are really easily manipulated into book four or book five, then you basically have a five book routine at best.
00:07:21
It's like an encore for a concert. We're all playing the game that there's like, we're pretending it's over.
00:07:28
We know it's going to, you're going to come back.
00:07:30
That's part of it too, is that they are supposed to be doing those negotiation tactics. They're supposed to be testing boundaries. The other thing, and I think, you know, it's good to reflect on yourself as an adult too. The other thing is they're not clued into their cues or how to solve some of their emotional or physical feelings with something like sleep. They're figuring that out. While as adults, we sometimes don't know that we need a nap or that we're tired or we're struggling or we're working at something. We work at something so hard and our brain just can't get there. And what we really need is probably a glass of water, maybe a walk around the block or 20 minute nap. We have a hard time figuring out that we need that for ourselves. Kids are not equipped to be had. They haven't learned that yet. So when they're really tired, when they're really frustrated, when they're really kind of melting down a little bit, it's not natural for them to go, you know what? I need to go to bed.
00:08:27
Very few kids do that. I've met one kid in my whole career who knew that when she was tired. I mean, you just conjured the number of times I've had to say to one of my children, I think maybe, are you feeling kind of tired? And they go, they're Rubbing their eyes and yawning, going, I'm not tired. I'm like, I've never seen a more tired child in my life. But you're absolutely right. They haven't figured out that self-awareness and those body cues yet. Let's talk for a few minutes about that bedtime routine. So this is going to be. I know you've probably gotten this advice before if you're listening to this podcast, because bedtimes are not peaceful at your house. Someone, your pediatrician, your mother-in-law, someone said to you, have you tried a routine? I'm here to tell you this really is going to help if you are consistent. Like Rachel said, if three books needs to mean three books night after night after night. And the routine needs to be really clear, both to you, any other caregivers who are doing bedtime and to your child. So if you've got a two-and-a-half-year-old, you need to explain the bedtime routine to them in a way that makes sense to them. It needs to be clear to them whether that means making a visual schedule with little icons. It's a little picture of pajamas and there's a little picture of a toothbrush and there's a picture of books and then there's a picture of maybe musical notes that means I'm going to sing your favorite song and then lights out. And you can follow that. It's like a little map. And you can rely on it that way when they start negotiating and saying things like, but I thought we did books and then teeth. Or can we just do like 10 books? You can say, oh, let's check the schedule. Let's check our bedtime routine. It's hanging on your wall or it's hanging in the bathroom. Oh, you know what it says pajamas and then teeth and then books. So we're going to follow this order. This is the routine. Right. And you can just rely on that as your map for the day.
00:10:10
Let them help decide. Like it doesn't. What does it matter if you put your pajamas on before you brush your teeth? Doesn't matter. You might have a routine of doing it. Let them help decide. So their decision, which order to do it in. Maybe it changes every week. You can mix it up, but not at that moment in the night. So you say Sundays. We'll take a look at our routine. Is there anything we want to change for the week? I think that we've, again, we talk about this all the time, but give children a choice, give children some sense of control and figure out where that can Be. So we'll keep talking about the three books. We're going to read three books. But you get to pick what they are.
00:10:46
So they get some choice. You might want to think about the length of the book.
00:10:59
And you can also pick one. You don't have to do three just because we're talking about three books. Three books.
00:11:03
Yes. You can pick whatever. Some families might do five books, or they might do the one book, like a chapter of a book or whatever it is they're reading.
00:11:09
And you have to be okay with reading the same book over and over again. I think I could probably still recite the Pokey Little puppy because I read it so many times. And, you know, you try to skip one page.
00:11:22
So you do have to hang in there. And you know that there's good developmental value in repeating the same book. So just hang in there and read that same book over and over.
00:11:31
And if you're looking for a script to use. I mean, I'm really a sucker for the bedtime books because I love reading and books so much, and I never want to discourage my children from reading. But at bedtime, you really have to. If you've said three books and your child says, but please, can we have a fourth book? You can say, I love that you love books so much. I love reading, too. So lean into that empathy and compassion and then say, the rule in our home is three books at bedtime. I cannot wait to read with you again tomorrow.
00:11:57
And that fourth book can be your first choice.
00:11:59
Exactly. Put it right here.
00:12:01
Exactly.
00:12:02
There's a place for that choice.
00:12:05
So just lean into that script and use that.
00:12:07
We both believe and know. The research tells us there's. There's. It's very conclusive that reading and reading with your child is so important. The other thing about reading is you are very present. You can't be kind of multitasking on the side and that you. Giving them yourself and your presence is so valuable. But it doesn't have to be reading every night. You could choose some other part as your. Your bedtime routine, or you could do one book in something else. You can make up stories together. You can play little games. What you don't want to do is have screen time right before bed. Any kind of screen Time. You don't want them bringing screen time into the bedroom with them. You don't want them to fall asleep to something on a screen. You don't want to leave them in the room with something on a screen, because that can be very disruptive to good sleep.
00:12:50
The research is really, really clear on that. I got a plus one that Rachel, keep those screens out of the. Out of the bedtime routine. And actually, if you can, even if screen time is part of your family routine, try to distance it as much as you can from bedtime. So if watching TV or looking at a tablet comes right before teeth, in pajamas and books, that might be a part of the problem that you're having. If you're not having tricky times at bedtime, really trying to.
00:13:17
Most experts would say, don't have any kind of screens in bedrooms. So I know families make different kinds of choices, but that because it's so important to not have those two things together and how disruptive that can be to even if they do fall asleep, that it can be disruptive to the quality of sleep. So it's just a good thing to start. Start a good habit or unwind that habit while they're young. That's just really a valuable, important thing to do. So you can take a look at that, make sure that that is not disrupting your schedule. Have a schedule. Find moments for choice. You do things like my dad used to do, like, what kind of kiss do you want before bed? Do you want a fluttery eyelash kiss on your face? Do you want to rub noses together? Do you want to kiss on two cheeks? I think those are the three ch. And you're like this. Like, I'm at a restaurant here. I'm making choices every night. Tonight I'm going to pick but you. So that gives kids this real fun sense of control. Maybe you do like a special handshake or a high five or whatever. You have some sort of meaningful ritual that closes and ends the night that you have done that. That means that it's time for bed. That doesn't mean it's always going to work, right? You're always. You going to have the child show up at the end of the couch. But the more you're consistently sticking to this and the more they can rely on it, then they also know they can get you if they truly, truly need you and they know where you are. Maybe they get to pick. Do they want the door open? Do they want the door closed? Do they want the nightlight right next to the bed? Or do they want it in the hallway. Help. They can make some choices.
00:14:47
Some choices. But still keeping within that routine that you've already agreed upon. I want to touch really quickly about on stalling, which was another one of my children's favorite tactics for just kicking that can down the road. He'd be in the tub. First of all, getting the child in the bathtub was a battle. Right. He didn't want to stop playing and get in the tub. Got him in the tub and now he's having the best time of his life. Now he doesn't want to get out of the tub. And it's the five books and the 10 turning into 10 books turning into 12 books. One thing we talk about sometimes is the ABC method. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
00:15:19
Yeah. So if you are having a struggle and this is for any time, but if you're having a struggle at bedtime, you want to. This ABC method is antecedent. So what has happened before the struggle? What's the behavior that's happening and then what's the consequence? What happened as a result of the behavior. And often you can figure out what the challenge is by looking at that A and the C. Because you're focused on that behavior, you want to get it to stop. But something in the environment or the routine probably caused it or you can find some consistency. The other thing you want to pay attention to is what they're eating pretty close to bedtime. So if you're doing a rich dessert or sugary snacks right before bedtime or a lot of juice or something like that, they're not going to be as tired. They're going to be a little bit wound up. So you can that often is identified as an antecedent. So. Oh, that's not actually they're having a reaction to that. We don't want to have that at bedtime. Or they have a behavior and the consequences, they get another book or as we've been talking about, then that means that you're kind of rewarding that behavior. So that's just a good method to use for anything. Yeah. But it's a good three step strategy that helps you especially in those moments where you're at your weakest and your own resolve.
00:16:34
So that can be really helpful. I think the other thing you talked about consistency, I want to talk mention too about consistency in time. So when you have this bedtime routine, it should be pretty consistent in terms of it's going to, you know, lights out by 8:30pm every night. We're not going to stray from that. We're not going to stray from it. We're on vacation, we're not going to stray from it. We're at grandparents house as much as you can. And then if you do get off that routine, you're going to notice behavior changes. Absolutely. But you have to plan for getting back on the routine. You're not going to get home from a vacation that you've been completely off routine and then the very next day be on routine. It's not going to work like that. So you have to ease yourself back into it. And you definitely want to think about this when things like summer to school time, it won't go well if you go from a summer vacation and tomorrow is school and we haven't spent the last two weeks getting back on routine. So that's another, that's a more significant antecedent is you can see that you. But that you have actually by not giving time for the transition, you have added to the challenge. So what you could do in situations like that is like roll it back 15 minutes or half hour, whatever it is, whether it's time or whether it's books or whether it's diet, whatever, whatever went awry when you were off schedule, then get it back on schedule. Some kids do better with being off schedule, some adults do better with being off schedule.
00:17:55
That's a temperament issue.
00:17:55
But I'm pretty good at being off schedule. But young kids aren't good at being off schedule. So as an adult, if you're someone who kind of changes and rolls with it all the time, you still need to keep that schedule for your kids.
00:18:07
What I hear you saying is that parents sometimes need to take a good hard look at how they might be contributing or like accidentally encouraging the stall tactics. Not totally inadvertently, but one of the things. Well intentioned, well intentioned, you obviously the best of intentions. But sometimes when we like like you keep saying, Rachel, we are so exhausted ourselves, at the end of the day it's easy to back off the routine. One of my best tips, I recommend this to families all the time. Get a visual timer for your house. Young kids don't understand what five more minutes means. Five minutes doesn't mean anything to a two and a half year old. Right. But if you can set a timer, it's a visual. And there's lots of retailers that sell them. You, you set the timer for five minutes and the color actually disappears as the time goes by. If you what. One of the things that I really struggled with was saying five more minutes in the tub. And then I wasn't really paying attention and I was flipping through a magazine. I'm like, oh, geez, it's been 15 minutes, like. And then I'm not being consistent. So I was taking a good hard look at how I was accidentally. I had the best of intentions, but I was accidentally contributing to bedtime. Drifting from 7:30 to 7:45 to 8:00pm now my child's overtired, really ornery, really resisting, fighting me about books and teeth. It was a snowball effect. So the visual timer, I'd set it, put it on the bathroom counter, say you can have two more minutes in the tub and then wait, when the timer goes off, we got to get out. You have to follow through with the timer for this to be an effective strategy. So, yeah, that's a really easy tool to add to your toolbox at bedtime.
00:19:35
And you can apply a lot of what we're saying to whatever works in your family. Maybe they get to have three stuffed animals in bed with them. Maybe they get to pick out. You can do the picking out pajamas for the week, the on Sunday, and they can have them hanging in their closet if that's something they need. There's all sorts of different bedtime routine things that you can set up ahead of time that will be important to your child, that be important to you. Of course, just kind of end like we always do with coming back to where we started is this is developmentally normal. If you should have a bedtime for your children that allows you to have some space in your day that it's not five minutes before your bedtime, so you're anxious about, you know, you need to end your day also. That allows you to have a little bit of grace and room for the times that they truly are worried that they are not going to get you if they need you or they did have a nightmare and they need some help. So that's when you're going to stray off the routine, not the every day. So get the routine established. And it takes a while to get a good routine established. Then you have space and capacity for those times that developmentally they're struggling. Or again, they just, they're just. We all. Everybody wakes up in the middle of the night with a need. Every once in a while they need some help with that. And that of course, of course, of course we should make exceptions for that. And that's where they need that comforting parenting. But that the things we've talked about today are the ways to make sure that that's not happening all night. Long every single night, so we wish you the best. We hope you get a good night's sleep after listening to this episode. Yes, have a peaceful bedtime tonight. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and if you have a parenting question that you'd like us to answer, you can actually email us at tplpodcast@brighthorizons.com and we might feature your question on a future episode.
00:21:18
Thanks for listening, everyone.
