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What I have learned throughout my life. And there have been times where I've been badly bent. I've never really been broken. And those moments where you're badly bent, where you're challenged, that's where the learning occurs. And sometimes that's a matter of being content where you're at. And if you don't have your next step forward, then maybe there's something for me to learn.

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Welcome back to The Work-Life Equation podcast where we discuss everything from people's careers, caregiving, and everything in between. I'm Priya.

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And I'm Paul. We're super excited today to introduce our guest, a living example of continuing a journey of education and personal growth. Chad Jones, Papa Johns Senior Manager of Career Development and Learning, launched Dough and Degrees, a fully funded tuition program at Papa Johns that has supported nearly 1,000 team members in continuing their education.

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Chad's experience shows us that growth has a real place in our career trajectory and that companies are willing to support us and extend their hand. Welcome on the show, Chad.

00:01:02
Thank you, Priya. Thank you, Paul. I appreciate the invitation to be here today.

00:01:06
Chad, your essay, from Dropout to Doctoral Student, A Journey of Growth, grit and Gratitude is really fascinating. Lest I summarize it for our listeners, could you go into it and tell us, I mean, not how you came to write the story, but tell us about your personal journey?

00:01:25
Thank you, Paul. So my personal journey with higher education started in 1989, showing my age. But my first step into higher education was with Illinois State University, and I was not successful in that venture. I spent about a year and a half before I was asked to take a step back for academic performance and, and you know, and that kind of landed hard, you know, when you're, when you, when you, when you're not successful at something, and I didn't really know why, so went into the working world, cut my teeth in a bunch of different industries. And it wasn't until about 2014 when I found or felt rather a calling to go back and start or finish what I started right out of high school. And that particular time I was managing a big box retail store. I went to school online full time and at Bethel University and earned my bachelor's degree in organizational leadership in 2016. That really sparked a monster. Because I transitioned my career into Papa Johns, I was able to continue my education where this past May, I just earned my master's degree in human resources and organizational development from Illinois State University. And on the heels of that, this week, in fact, started My doctoral journey for my EdD in Adult Learning and Development with Valdosta State University.

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That's incredible. So clearly your personal journey has played a role in how you've been thinking about the Dough and Degrees program. Tell us a little bit about the program and how you envisaged it.

00:03:05
Yeah, so we originally started ideating about Doughs and Degrees in 2018. You know, we were looking for a vehicle that could serve as both an attraction and recruitment tool, but also one that could have a positive impact on tenure and help to offset the high turnover of our corporate restaurants. As we got started, you know, we chipped away the things that we weren't looking for, and ultimately that led us to launching our program in 2019 and. And then shortly thereafter, we were able to enter into a partnership with EdAssist by Bright Horizons to help us expand our program and bring a full suite of offerings to meet the needs of our team members wherever they are on their own individual education journeys.

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I read that a third of Dough and Degree students have already graduated and nearly 80% of them remain employed with Papa Johns, which is that 80% stat is really fantastic because they're showing this great retention benefit. I'm sure it's doing other stuff with their personal training. Maybe you just tell a little bit about how do and degrees and particularly that 80% number, how that's impacted Papa Johns.

00:04:24
Yeah, that's an interesting question. At the end of the day, we want team members to be engaged. We want team members to feel like they're contributing to their own personal development. And this is a tool to help us with that. Prior to launching this program, we, like many organizations, had a corporate reimbursement model for education benefit. But we didn't really have anything that reached down or reached out to the frontline restaurant worker, that is the delivery drivers, the shift leaders, and those folks making pizzas. And they're the hardest working people in our industry. And everybody at our three restaurant support centers are there because of the work that's being done in the store. And so when we think about where the impact is coming from, over 80% of the participants typically come from within the restaurants. What's interesting, and we see the. The adoption of the program strongly coming from what I would refer to the middle of the bookshelf. So if you think of the bookends of the positions, we have delivery drivers and we have restaurant general managers who are both financially motivated. Motivated in their job. Right. Delivery drivers with tips and managers with bonuses. But those folks that are coming from a working wage to do a job are the ones that historically are taking advantage of this program the most. And that tells me that we're developing our middle level of our workforce in the stores, positioning them for future growth, but also giving them a tangible benefit for working at Papa Johns other than just coming to make a paycheck.

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It's really interesting hearing you talk about it, because at Bright Horizons, we run a similar program, Chad, for our teachers. It's a very similar structure. To say, how do we attract, retain, and progress talent? What is the process that goes into developing a program like this, between leadership and employee engagement, and then finding the right educational partners that would help develop this workforce that you intend to both retain as well as attract?

00:06:29
That's a great question. I think. I like to say that Michelangelo didn't carve the statue of David, right? He just took away everything that wasn't David. And I think the same approach is one that I took as we were ideating about our program. First, everything that all the decisions that we made, we wanted to put through the lens of, is it team member centric, Is it employee centric? Is it in the best interest of the team member, and are we offering something of value, value to them? When we started this program, we had, at that time, fairly liberal eligibility requirements from 90 days on the job and 20 hours a week. But what we saw post Covid with the impact of Covid on the service industry was we saw a shifting of the tides. And because there was such an exodus of shift workers from the field, we weren't hitting them where they were with their eligibility. You know, they weren't hitting the 20 hours just because in the 90 days, because we had such an influx of new team members. So we actually made the decision to dial the eligibility requirements back to 10 hours a week and 60 days on the job. And we were able to almost double our eligibility pool. So the first lens that I would look at, Priya, is first to say, what do the team members want? What do they need? We can create the best program in the world and bring the best partners, but if they're not delivering what our team members need, then we're missing the mark. And so our first launch focused on offering higher education degrees, associates, bachelor's and master's degrees. But in our industry, we also have a large portion of our team members who maybe as much as 25%, according to industry standards, who left high school prior to graduating. And it was really important to me that we met our team members at all levels where they Were and the impact that we saw on participation against the effective turnover was we saw almost a four time, a longer tenure rate of people in the program versus not. And that told me that there was engagement. Right, because they're going to have to invest some time to earn their degree along the way. The impact, just the, the, the, the, the side result, if you will, is an engaged employee, somebody who's focusing on meeting deadlines and commitments because of what they're doing just to, to finish their education. And so there's, there's a lot of benefits there. And then we spoke a little bit about, you know, the folks staying with us after and, and I think that there's a couple things at play. First, I think that team members who are in the restaurants are contributing to their own development and therefore are able to see a forward trajectory with a company like Papa Johns that it's not just limited to, to the restaurants. And then secondly, our general managers being able to gain traction in the store whereas before they were hiring all the time and training. Now with a little bit longer tenure, we're able to invest in great customer service, making great pizzas, you know, the things that we need to execute on day in and day out. And so I think there's benefits all the way around with the program.

00:10:04
Chad, in your piece from dropout to doctor student, toward the bottom of it, you thank the other people who've been part of your journey. You talk about mentors and colleagues and it's sort of a two part question. I'd love to hear. First the personal part, some of the mentors and colleagues who supported you on your journey. And then the second part. I love to hear stories of how you and Papa Johns are supporting the people who are participating in Doughs and Degrees. And here I'm sure you have a ton of these, but a few stories about how offering this program has helped shape their career paths in a positive way.

00:10:42
Paul, that's a great question. And you know, my wife and I don't have any children ourselves. And so when I think about at 54, I think about the legacy that I want to leave behind. This is part of that. And so when I think about how I got here and the people that helped me get here, of course I had some, some very influential high school teachers who, who helped to create the, the muscle for learning, right. And provide a good foundation. But within my professional career, in between a dropout and re enrolling, I worked in a lot of industries. But I think perhaps maybe the most influential was my stop prior to Papa Johns, which was with Ashley Furniture. And I found myself at that particular time, I was stuck, right? I was at the bottom of the circle of life and needed an opportunity. Ashley presented itself, and I joined them in 2011 as a furniture salesperson. Having come from different careers, there was a little bit of animosity in my own mind that maybe I wasn't supposed to be here. I fought that battle by saying, okay, well, while I'm here, I'm going to be the best furniture salesperson that I can be. And if I want some things to change, I need some things to change. And so the first person that I would credit is a gentleman by the name of Arnie Capitonelli. And at that particular time, Arnie was our vice president of sales. And he was that coach, that person that you love to hate, right? That they're tough. They give you the feedback that you need. You don't always know that you need it at the time, but later down the road, you realize that how they poured into you really left a positive impact. The other person from Ashley that I would really say left an impact on me, his name is Jeff Hauling, and he's now vice president within the Ashley organization. So, you know, I was responsible. Ultimately, I worked my way up through the organization. I think focusing on that good work helped me be recognized. I moved into their management training program and then was elevated to a general manager of our Louisville, Kentucky store. It was a flagship store. 70,000 square feet, about $15 million a year, and 25 salespeople. So, you know, I don't know that I would have gotten to that point without the leadership and the.

00:13:15
The modeling by Arnie and Jeff. And ultimately, that's what led me to be in the position, having earned my degree, to receive the invitation to consider employment at Papa Johns. And then I'd like to say that the folks that gave me an opportunity at Papa Johns, I will always forever credit them with the opportunity to step into this space. And their names are Tom Dealey and Chris Titshaw. The two of them have worked closely with me and helped me get acclimated at Papa Johns to be able to have this Runway that I'm on now.

00:13:53
The second part of that question, Chad. When you see the pay it forward component having helped create Dough and Degrees, when you look at that, 80% of Papa Johns employees who have gone through the program and are still employed at Papa Johns tell some stories about the feedback that perhaps You've received from the difference that that program is making in their lives.

00:14:18
Yeah, I think that there's positives and challenges woven all throughout those stories. Right. Everybody has a different perspective, but a gentleman by the name of Kevin Moore that I'd like to highlight entered our Dough and Degrees program at the same time that his children were. Were entering college. And he wanted to take that step to demonstrate what excellence looked like. He's since earned his bachelor's degree. He's working on his master's program. He transferred from our quality control center in North Carolina to here in Atlanta and really has become a spokesperson for the program internally with his teams at the production facility here in Georgia. I think another opportunity is a team member who decided to go back and get their high school diploma. Single mother of three realized that an education was the way to open the doors to future opportunities. And Paul, that one really struck home with me because I grew up in a divorced home, single parent from age 10 on, so I could relate to that. And that touched close to home to see her making the same investment that my mother did 40 years ago.

00:15:41
Yeah. And as you're even talking about this, Chad, juggling work and home can be hard enough. And to throw education and school into that, that's a lot. What accommodations are you seeing educational providers make to support these working learners? And how are you supporting them at Papa Jones?

00:16:04
I think that the biggest hurdle is to provide opportunities where team members can take advantage of it on a schedule that makes sense to them and meets their needs. We know that our pizza makers, our restaurant team members, it's not ideal for them to get out of the restaurant to go to school during the day. And so oftentimes you'll find them before school, after school, sometimes the middle of the night. I've received feedback that they're doing homework again. I can relate to that. You know, having worked 80 hours a week going to school, I can relate to that. And the second part, I think, is removing all legitimate barriers. For somebody to take advantage of that, that comes in the way of out of pocket spend being the number one. Right. We all know that money is tight. And asking a team member to front money to buy books or to be reimbursed, that could be a barrier to entry that we wanted to remove.

00:17:09

This is such a remarkable program. The Doughs and Degrees. I wonder, now that it's been running for a little bit, do you think of it as a tool to help retain employees, to help promote employees from within and to other roles, to attract employees from somewhere else who may be future leaders at Papa Johns. How do you see the beyond the very altruistic nature of this, of educating people and providing them an opportunity for furthering their education. How do you see it from that bottom line, corporate part?

00:17:45
Yeah. I think it's transcended its original purpose through the stories that we're seeing come to life. These are. These are things that I like to equate to planting a seed for a tree under whose shade you'll never sit. Right. We never really see the full impact of the work that we're doing. To specifically answer your question, I would say yes, it definitely hits on all of those. But at the end of the day, I think every company needs to look through the lens of what am I doing to develop my people. Because people are our business. Pizza is what we do. And we're providing an opportunity that really delivers on our core value of people first and everyone belongs. Two of our five core values we're demonstrating through our walk. We're providing this opportunity to folks and we're seeing it really have impacts above and beyond. Let me go earn my degree. We've layered in continuing professional education certificate training for more micro learning focused skill development. We have even, to meet the needs of our monolingual Spanish speaking team members, have added on a new university offering a full Spanish immersive college experience. It really is about meeting our team members where they are and giving them what they need to be successful. Regardless of what that definition is, it's unique to every person.

00:19:22
I love when you said that this is planting a seed for a tree whose shade you might not enjoy. That's such a beautiful line. It's one thing, and I'm so appreciative of hearing you talk about the fact that you're removing barriers like buying textbooks or thinking about fronting the money up. What were your obstacles as you were setting up the program? Because as we talk to a lot of leaders such as yourself who are trying to make the case for creating a program like this, this notion of whether it's a cost or an investment up front is something that comes about. So what were some of those obstacles and how did you deal with them?

00:20:07
That's an important question because now you're talking about stakeholders and what's the ROI that an organization is going to receive? On that note, you know, I had the good fortune in 2020 to visit for a week with Pat and Jack with. I'm sorry, with Jack and Patty Phillips from the ROI Institute. They are the gold standard of deriving ROI from hard to measure programs such as education or hr. They are the gold standard accepted by association of Talent Development, ATD as the method for deriving ROI from such programs. And having had that opportunity to learn from them allowed me to bring that skill in house at Papa Johns to look at all of the costs and benefits of our program in order to reach what the ROI of our program is. You know, it's crazy to think about it, but in, in 2023, our program delivered an 82% ROI against the cost of turnover within our restaurants. And that's huge. You know, so for the executive team, when you present those findings, for the executive team to say, hey, you know, this is, this is pretty cool. This might be one of the best things that we have to offer our, our employees right now. You know, that's meaningful to see Shaquille o' Neal on TV creating it. Let me try that again. You know, so to, to see Shaquille o' Neal on TV promoting our program as an endorsement, you know, that's equally satisfying and it makes you feel positive and good that, that you've got that kind of exposure on your program.

00:22:00
Yeah, that's great. I'd be remiss if during our conversation I didn't slip in at least one pun without giving away the secret sauce. Wait for the drum roll. What advice would you give to other companies that want to implement a program similar to Dough and Degrees to help their employees the way Papa Johns has helped its employees?

00:22:27
Yeah, I think, Paul, I think that every organization should take a shared approach in developing people. Right. I think that programs like this, while they might seem difficult and a big mountain to put together. It's like the old cliche, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time. Right. And I think it really starts with understanding what do you want your program to look like? And then let's take some steps to reverse engineer to get there. And you know, I think the, the partnership with EdAssist by Bright Horizons has been influential in first off, helping us understand what the registration to graduation process looks like for students. And I think oftentimes businesses don't think about that perspective from, from the student's mindset. Right. What are they going to face to do this? Secondly, I think that it's common for businesses to think of talent development as an optional. And I think that when you do that, it makes it easy to become a budget line that gets caught, gets cut rather. And when businesses think about pouring into their people And I'll throw a sort of Richard Branson quote out there. You know, what if you train your people and they leave and what if you don't and they stay? Right. You have that combined with train your people well enough that they could leave and treat them well enough that they don't. And I think that those two things combined are a great starting point. The second thing is that word of advice would be for businesses to really look at how they can leverage current U.S. tax codes and to gain some tax benefits from their investment in education. Because there are real benefits to be had in the form of tax offsets that do turn into a measurable benefit in demonstrating ROI.

00:24:33
I have never heard the term eating an elephant one bite at a time. I remember that one too. Finally, based on your own experience and just the sheer grit and perseverance you've shown and going from step to step, and congratulations on starting this journey on your doctoral studies, what would be a piece of advice that you would offer our listeners, especially just given the context? Skills are changing, the world around is changing, the nature of work is changing. What would you give as words of advice to someone like me, other listeners on this show?

00:25:10
I think the best advice that I could offer would be to enjoy the journey. What I have learned throughout my life and there have been times where I've been badly bent. I've never really been broken. And those moments where you're badly bent, where you're challenged, that's where the learning occurs. And sometimes that's a matter of being content where you're at. And if you don't have your next step forward, then maybe there's something for me to learn here and I need to take a few minutes, maybe take a season in this particular role. I think we've all had jobs that we've scratched our head and say, why did I do that? Or you know, but I think that everything is relative for your journey, where you're at and something to be learned. And then the other thing I would say is that when opportunities present themselves, be curious, don't close the door on something because you don't think it's for you, it might be for you in five years and maybe you don't know that yet. So that's why I say enjoy the journey because we could have the best laid plans. But at the end of, of the day, you know, opportunities come up, present themselves and any change in our decisions will ultimately impact that long term journey. So just be curious is how I would sum that up.

00:26:30
Yeah. And it's such great advice because I think, you know, being curious through your journey, learning under both in good times and in bad, and enjoying that journey, all three feel like great pieces of advice. Thank you so much. Chad. Your story is simply transformative, and we've learned so much from both what you've done personally, but also what you've done at Papa Johns through the Dough and Degrees program. Thank you for putting the program together. And I'm sure a lot of people will enjoy the shade from that planted seed of yours.

00:27:03
I mean, that was simply inspiring. Just simply inspiring. He has a personal journey which is so compelling. He saw where he could help people at Papa Johns, and then this enormous company got behind it and put all the weight and resources behind it to help an awful lot of people. And of course, from a bottom line, they've retained 80% of the people who've completed the program. And all around, just a lovely, positive story.

00:27:37
Yeah. There were three things that struck me about the program. One was the fact that he was someone who'd gone through it and decided that this was it had helped him in his journey, and he wanted to see it take place. Which a personal experience shaping a benefit is always one way to think about it. The fact that he had gone through the effort of saying, how do I justify the ROI, who is best in class, and how do I determine how to think about this and bring that thinking into the organization, and then to actually go back and say who's played those roles in his life, and then talk about both barriers and successes of people who've gone through the program. Even the two stories you spoke about, Paul, one of the gentlemen who went into college with his kids, and then the single mom, you know, which sort of reflected his journey. Both of those show that he's being thoughtful about not just providing the benefit, but thinking about what is the scaffolding that's required to make sure people are successful.

00:28:44
Yeah. And when he talks about the ROI and go and talk to people at the ROI Institute, it's so interesting because it's on so many different levels. Like the story of that gentleman who went to college with his kids. I mean, that changed that person's life. But what is he now? He is now promoting the program within Papa Johns getting people say, well, maybe I want to stay here. Maybe I can get something else. The woman who goes back and finishes her high school degree, that's wonderful for her. It's inspiring for her children. It's important for other kids in the organization. And Then, you know, these are all people who are taking a leap. The ones who are going first, and now others that follow are like, okay, I see the company. They says. The company says that they want to stand behind us, and now they're showing us the. That they actually are staying behind it. But I love, like you're saying, how precise Chad is about. He wanted to justify this, and it's something he didn't have to do, but he created something that's so meaningful when he talked about his own legacy. This is something that will live on, particularly if other companies say, okay, it worked for Papa Johns, maybe we can get it to work for us.

00:29:45
Yeah, and I love the way he said, I haven't thought about it this way. You know, the fact that he said that the general managers in the stores now suddenly got more time because retention was higher, so they could focus on the work of the work, which was producing pizza. So the fact that it's a retention benefit, but it's also an operational benefit. Right. Like, they are just doing excellent work because they're focusing not on hiring, which is not the biggest part of the job, which is excellence in the restaurant. There's so much to learn in that episode.

00:30:19
Thank you, Chad, and thank you to our listeners for being part of The Work-Life Equation.

00:30:26
Until next time, take care of yourselves and of each other. This episode is brought to you by Bright Horizons. And we hope you really enjoy what you heard.